Today I did the unthinkable and actually attended a campus lecture hosted by a club, dragging with me my highly tolerant friend S, my self-described “pseudo-boyfriend.” He performs many objectionable tasks, such as taking me to the nail salon and waiting for me while reading Elle and shopping with me for earrings and commenting on their relative merits. Unfortunately he accrues no boyfriendly benefits. Thanks, S!
On examining the poster, we found that free pop and pizza were to be served at the event. We had planned to go to lunch, but upon conferring agreed that freeness supersedes all other lunch considerations, including my no cheese diet and his Orthodox fast. We turned up at the appointed room and hovered hopefully, checking the horizon for pizza every few minutes.
The club was the Christian Legal Fellowship. I’ve never interacted with any of them before but found that many of the members were people I know but have never actually heard speak. Apparently they’re dynamic members of the Christian legal community – I guess law school has no wallflowers. Majed El Shafie was speaking. Apparently Mr. El Shafie is an Egyptian convert to Christianity who was subsequently tortured for conversion and proselytizing in an Egyptian prison, and then convicted of various related crimes. As he awaited the death penalty under house arrest his friends helped him escape to the Sinai where he lived as a Bedouin for some months while plotting to find a way across the Egyptian border into Israel. Eventually he stole a jet ski and used it to cross the Rea Sea, avoiding the Egyptian and Israeli coast guards by crossing between them in such a way that if they fired at him they would be caught in the crossfire. After being detained in an Israeli jail for over a year, the UNHCR and Amnesty International arranged for him to obtain asylum in Canada. He currently heads One Free World International, a human rights organization based in Toronto. Needless to say he cracked many Egyptian-style jokes during his talk which were received with polite titters. I don’t think anything knocks jokes-making out of an Egyptian.
I don’t question this man’s faith. It was evident in every word he spoke. But many of the details of his story, which you can read here, didn’t jive for me. House arrest? Bedouins? Jet skis? I don’t deny that the torture and prosecution he spoke of can and does happen in Egypt, or even that it happened to him. I just think he embellished on it quite a lot. I made numerous snorting sounds and rolled my eyes at S throughout, who was snickering to himself as he still finds Egyptian English accents amusing even after over 30 years of being one. When the lecture was over I charged down to the podium, S in tow, determined to speak to him, not, obviously, having thought through was I was going to say. That wouldn’t be me. Having introduced myself, I opened with this: “I don’t quite believe your story, but I was wondering where you get your statistics?”
S cringed. In retrospect I realize that no matter how incredible I found him, this was something I could have kept to myself. Moreover, what if he really is telling the truth? How horrible to have been tortured and not be believed. Anyway at first he said “You can believe what you want,” but having learned my religion chided me, as all religious people routinely do, with not having enough faith to believe him or something like that. When will people learn that when questioned about actual facts, alluding to the existence of a religious figure is not in itself an argument in support of their veracity? Sure, miracles do happen. So show me proof. I insisted that refugees often lied, and that as he should know courts need proof to determine questions of fact. He conceded this and offered to email me documents supporting both his own experience and the statistics on incarcerated Copts he cited, adding that I should operate on the presumption that refugees are telling the truth until proven otherwise. I replied that this was actually not how the Canadian refugee determination system worked since these people have not been charged with anything, and so the burden of proof is on them. Annoyingly he said, “I don’t care what they do in Canada. I care about the Bible,” or some such nonsensical answer. I presume he was trying to say that Christian practice dictates that people be given the benefit of the doubt, but he clearly did not understand the nature of the venue he was speaking in. If these persecuted people are going to be helped, we cannot depend on Christian charity to do it.
He also told me that the Israeli news documented his landing in Eilat and his subsequent detention. As he had changed his name I don’t see how I can find out more about this. I know that he testified before the Canadian parliament, showing them scars from his torture, but I need more. He claimed he had written a book about Christian persecution in Egypt, most copies of which he claims have been destroyed, but he still has one and is getting it translated and published soon. Of course, nothing will prove that he actually wrote this book in the late nineties as he alleges. He also claims to have established underground churches, a movement 24,000 persons strong, clinics. I will ask among the community to see if anyone recalls anything like this happening at the time (I know precisely the sort of persons who would be involved in an underground Christian movement with churches in mountain caves). I invite readers to assist me in the search, as I have no Arabic search engine. I want to determine not only the truth of his story, but obtain some real unbiased facts about Coptic discrimination and persecution in Egypt. You’ll tell me: has anyone any way of obtaining facts about what goes on in the dungeons of Central Security and Abu Zaabal, whoever the victims are? The whole thing is shrouded in mystery and corruption. All I want is some anecdotal evidence, some personal testimonies, some news items printed at the right time by the right people – not from the tabloid press or the paranoid (and distant) Coptic organizations in the diaspora. I want copies of the laws that make actually worshipping Jesus a crime, that Mr. El Shafei claims he was charged with. I want statistics on convictions. Because when I’ve gotten the real picture, I’m going to stop twiddling my thumbs and being, as so many of us are, afraid to speak up, focusing our energies instead on general political reform which will never change the prejudices of millions. Too many Egyptian Christians of my background try and act as if nothing is really the matter, never even bringing up the issue with their Muslim friends, not wanting to make people uncomfortable and attract what can only be harmful attention. Minorities are just that; people who have not the power of the majority. And it’s time that I stopped being such an apologist and scoffer and at least tried to determine what the real truth is.
forsoothsayer
Unnecessary and not very diverting musings 
The Skeptic
April 13, 2006
Forsoothsayer: I don’t doubt that this guy was tortured. But you’re right, the story about the Bedouin and the jet-skis sounds a little like something out of a bad movie. Who is he, James Bond? Nadia al-Gindi? Probably he just got on a plane or a bus and twiddled his thumbs.On torture in Egypt, see this quick read (plus footnotes) from HRW. A Google search turns up 9.7 million more results, including a good paper from EOHR. Torture is, I’m afraid, the norm. I had a roommate once who had been tortured (electric shocks to the genitals and beatings with a wire — I saw the scars from the latter) for getting caught with some bango.
forsoothsayer
April 13, 2006
oh, i know torture is quite widespread, for a lot of people. i just wanted to know if it happened to christians arbitrarily, or if in fact there are actual crimes associated with christianity.
Alb Sayed
April 13, 2006
You echoed my sentiments exactly. Being a Muslim in the diaspora, I rarely question allegations by Christians of torture, discrimination, etc. Because knowing Egypt, all of it seems believable.But, like you, I’ve always wanted statistics, real-people (versus internet reported) well documented stories, etc. And as you point out, what little Egyptian Christian friends I know never speak of these issues.I also doubt the speaker’s super-hero-like escape story, but him being tortured for converting or spreading Christianity seems believable (but again, facts would close the deal).One last point: “Egyptian Christians of my background try and act as if nothing is really the matter”I think this is true of Egyptian Muslims as well, inside or outside of Egypt.
forsoothsayer
April 13, 2006
it’s understandable that Muslims would try to pretend as if nothing is the matter; after all it doesn’t affect them. but so many muslims of my acquaintance really believe it and stoically deny that any discrimination takes place. shame on them.
Badr
April 13, 2006
you think if he was e7’wan muslimeen he’d have been treated any other way, i once got stopped and searched by the police while crossing the street through a subway station, later on i discover that they just stopped me cause i haven’t had shaved for 4 days. you think christian people are discriminated against in egypt, well i think egyptians are discriminated against in egypt.
shrinkreplaced
April 14, 2006
Although I can’t help you with this, I wish you good luck!
Faisal
April 14, 2006
HeyaI have to comment on a couple of comments that were made here:”I had a roommate once who had been tortured (electric shocks to the genitals and beatings with a wire — I saw the scars from the latter) for getting caught with some bango.”Now, everything forsooth said is either true or has strong elements of truth into it. What happened to your room-mate is definitely an exception. My brother and company got caught with Hashish… nothing of the sort happened to them. I know of LOTS of people who got caught with Drugs and nothing happened to them.The thing that happens when you get caught with drugs is that you usually give the officer some of the stuff and things will be be dandy. This is common knowledge on anyone who like to smoke up while in a vehicle.Now, I’m not saying that there should be offences where torture is allowed – FAR FROM IT! But, the only way I can imagine that your friend might have had that happen to him is because they wanted him for something else, probably political. Your average run-of-the-mill police station in this country is not equipped to electrocute people… BUT State Security (Amn el Dawla) HQs and other places are. I know people who were electrocuted as well, some of them were taken in for months as political dissentees… but believe me when I tell you that what happened does NOT generally happen to those caught with drugs. Even dealers.As for what badr said… that is, in fact, true. They would stop and ask me for my ID in metro stations everytime I let my facial hair grow longer. Thankfully, my hair is (actually was, this was before I graduated and got a job) relatively long and I definitely did not look like a religious conservative (or the stereo-typical image of religious conservatives and/or Islamists in Egypt) so I knew I wasn’t going to get into any serious trouble.
Al-Zarwani
April 14, 2006
LOL. Don’t doubt you could get off a drug charge if you gave the officer some of your stash. Probably more often than not. But from the moment you’re busted to the moment you land in jail, I suspect what happens to you has a lot to do with your position in society. Homeboy was from Bab al-Sharaya. Anyway, I don’t want to distract from the main conversation here. Forsoothsayer and Alb Sayed have a good point: Torture might be common, but torture for being Christian? I personally haven’t heard of anything of the sort.
forsoothsayer
April 14, 2006
i’ve not heard of government torture just for BEING christian, unless u count the incidents in el Kosheh, documented the Egyptian Centre for Human Rights and National Unity (ECHRNU)and the Egyptian Organisation for Human Rights (EOHR) but into which there was no investigation. however, i have heard of numerous incidents of people being trotured for converting to christianity and for proslytizing. those are actual crimes in egypt and so they have a good excuse to drag them in.
Basil Fawlty
April 15, 2006
I actually believe his story though I think he sexied it up a tad. I agree it affects his credibility when he claims to have dodged bullets, matrix-style, on a jet ski, but the point remains: torture exists, unfettered, in Egypt and tolerance is no more than a river in Egypt.Wait…or is that denial?
Glenn Penner
February 2, 2007
I have heard this guy give is story three times and each time it is different. I really doubt most of what he says, especially since I am involved in supporting persecuted Christians and am absolutely committed to the telling the truth about it.
Anonymous
March 13, 2007
Forsoothsayer,I am currently doing research on the subject. The DOS reports from the US have just been released (March 06, 2007) and refer to some of these killings of Coptics in Egypt in 2006. (See these, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78851.htm and http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13256156.htm and http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4780)While I truly admire the intellectual integrity you seek to have on this question and thus, your need for facts, it seems to me that the speaker’s claims of being jailed for worshipping Jesus are not that outlandish for him (conversion is against the law for a Muslim). But even for Copts,there is no question the police in Egypt often make the rules up as they go. So there maybe several instances where the police act in a manner that has nothing to do with the “laws” you seek copies of. Sure, you want documentation, but I believe you misrepresent the Canadian refugee determination system when you apply the standard of proof as judicial rather than quasi-judicial. For the IRB, the ultimate standard for determination is credibility. Refugee judges can decide, based on viva voce evidence, that a claim is credible, even without the hard evidence you think they need. If country reports completely negate a refugee’s testimony, that is one thing. But, if reports persistently refer to a country’s human rights as poor with no protection available for minorities, it is not that much of a leap to think that some Copts have legitimate claims.
Forsoothsayer
March 13, 2007
thanks dude, but i am a copt, a refugee lawyer and a resident of egypt. I have personally viewed the IRB’s file on Egypt. I have also read the US state department report, of course. the dude was utterly incredible. that’s all.
Anonymous
March 14, 2007
Well, Sorry for the outburst but I believe that there is enough “circumstancial” evidence to damn the government of Egypt for its appalling response to the societal violence directed towards Copts by Muslim fundamentalists. Mubarak and most of the Egyptian press have been incredibly effective at sweeping things under the carpet. Several human rights activists have been jailed whenever they have spoken out for Copts and a blogger has just lost an appeal for a four-year prison sentence a couple of days ago for writing negatively about a Muslim riot against Coptic churches in 2005. I don’t personally think that Mubarak has anything specifically against Copts, but he will let no one stand in the way of his precious tourism industry and the handouts he receives from the US. The Copts are collateral damage…
Forsoothsayer
March 14, 2007
dude/dudette, I seriously know 🙂 i know how bad it is. if you read the post carefully, i was just questioning this particular guy’s outlandish sotry of desert escapes and bullets whizzing by heads, while doubting his claim that actually worshipping jesus is a crime here (still haven’t checked that). i also contacted him and he never replied nor sent me any proof that he said he had of his alleged book. nor have any of the raging christians who comprise much of my acquaintance ever heard of his “10,000-strong” movement.also, the issue is really a lot more complex than tourism and aid money. there’s also the basic repression of every single Egyptian, the influence of the Brotherhood and militant Islamic movements..and so much more. If you’re really serious about this research, there are some directions I could point you in. also, that isn’t exactly what poor abdel karim was jailed for…seriously.
Anonymous
March 14, 2007
A couple of points:1) A “careful” reading of your post shows that you are not only questioning the speaker’s story, you are also looking for “some real unbiased facts about Coptic discrimination and persecution in Egypt”. I don’t believe I misunderstood your post. I provided you with some evidence (DOS report) which you said you’ve read, “of course”. Well, if you did, is there some deficiency in US reporting you have a problem with?2.The speaker was fighting for Copts. He put himself out there for that. I don’t begrudge your insistence on facts and veracity. I said I admired that and I meant it.But, considering he is technically on your side, you might present your side of the coin a little less glibly and uncharitably. 3. Abdel Karim was charged with speaking out against the prophet and islam when he called Muslim rioters inhuman and brutal and also referred to the prophet and his followers as “spillers of blood”. If you can justify his jail sentence, go ahead, but HRW and AI have both denounced the sentence. 4. You say the issue includes the repression of every single Egyptian. Sorry but a “careful” reading of your original post says that you are discussing the Coptic Question, not the “general human rights in Egypt question”. Sorry if this comes across as peavish but I am in doubt as to how serious you are over the Coptic Question, what with being one yourself!
Forsoothsayer
March 14, 2007
this is ridiculous. this entry was written nearly a year ago, before the current Usdos report came out, which is different from last year’s. i have since learned a lot more about the situation – but the presence of unbiased evidence or reporting is still very limited. justify abdel karim’s sentence? how dare you suggest that i would do such a thing just because i have correctly questioned your understanding of what he was charged and convicted with? please, look that up, as i am at work now and cannot be bothered to do it for you. it wasn’t because he spoke thr truth about the persecution of Christians in Egypt that he was jailed. it was because he insulted a religion, which is a crime here, as well as insulted the president. revolting as i think that is, i think you misstate and diminish both his imprisonment and the Christian issue when you make the correlation you made. i think that guy did a serious disservice to “my side”, as i still think he was lying, at least in part, which discredits everyone else. i said that the persecution of copts in egypt does have to do, of course, with the general repression of the government of a lot of people. i wanted information that the GOVERNMENT ITSELF persecutes christians for BEING christian alone, not as part of some other crime. i have still seen nothing about that.this discussion is over. if you can’t see that this is a dated entry, there’s no point in talking.
Forsoothsayer
March 14, 2007
i will say tho: most of what you said is totally correct. the government does respond appallingly to violence against Copts; there is a lot of carpet sweeping and denial; the discrimiantion on every level is awful…but my concerns still stand.